Talk:Torah

Sock edits

Robert Wagner has been blocked as a notorius sock of Dalai lama ding dong. Unfortunately, he made a huge amount of controversial edits that were often reverted, some were not. I'd suggest going through them and seeing if anything is there that should not be, and reverting if required. --

The Hellenistic period didn't start at 333 BCE, it was a year later.

Alexander's army entered Palestine/Israel after the siege of Tyre, in 332 BCE, the date of 333 BCE for the start of the Hellenistic period is inaccurate. 79.116.76.190 (talk) 09:35, 12 May 2024 (UTC)

Can we improve on this wording and sources?

“Though hotly debated, the general trend in biblical scholarship is to recognize the final form of the Torah as a literary and ideological unity, based on earlier sources, largely complete by the Persian period”

Römer (2008) in Composition section seems especially pertinent as a source for the lead. I think the first two references currently in the lead are too old. Even this Römer one is a bit old. Schniedewind (2022) seems solid though.

Römer (2008) clarifies that its the *proto*-Torah that’s released in the Persian period, not the final form (that would be in the Hasmonean period presumably). I’m open to including something about ideological unity of the proto-Pentatuch if it’s stated in recent scholarship. As far as my current understanding goes, I don’t think there’s an academic consensus about that and I don’t think it should be in the lead. IncandescentBliss (talk) 23:31, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Torah and Pentateuch

As I've indicated via my edit summaries, the idea that "Pentateuch" is a Christian name is without foundation. It's an entirely neutral name. Torah and Pentateuch are not even necessarily the same thing, see e.g. Knoppers, Gary N. and Levinson, Bernard M.. The Pentateuch as Torah: New Models for Understanding Its Promulgation and Acceptance, University Park, USA: Penn State University Press, 2007. https://doi-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/10.1515/9781575065854 . The blurb of this scholarly book: Since antiquity, the five books of Moses have served as a sacred constitution, foundational for both Jews and Samaritans. However long the process of accepting the Pentateuch as authoritative tōrâ (“instruction”) took, this was by all accounts a monumental achievement in the history of these peoples and indeed an important moment in the history of the ancient world. In the long development of Western societies, the Pentateuch has served as a major influence on the development of law, political philosophy, and social thought. The question is: how, where, and why did this process of acceptance occur, when did it occur, and how long did it take? On the other hand, both Ngram and Google scholar seem to confirm that there are more hits for "Torah". I suspect that we would need to ask someone actually versed in the scholarly literature to give a definitive statement on which is more common and in what sense.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:49, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Another source, Burge, Stephen R., Elliott, Mark, Gertz, Jan Christian, Klumpenhouwer, Samuel and Sweeney, Marvin A.. "Pentateuch". Encyclopedia of the Bible and Its Reception Online, edited by Constance M. Furey, Peter Gemeinhardt, Joel Marcus LeMon, Thomas Chr. Römer, Jens Schröter, Barry Dov Walfish and Eric Ziolkowski. Berlin, Boston: De Gruyter, 2024. https://doi-org.wikipedialibrary.idm.oclc.org/10.1515/ebr.pentateuch. Accessed 2025-01-21.

“Pentateuch” is the typical scholarly term for the first five books of the HB/OT: Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The term, first used in Alexandria in the 2nd century CE, was adopted by the Western church in a Latinized form as pentateuchus (liber). The complete expression in Greek is ἡ πεντάτευχος βίβλος, “the five-part book” (τεῦχος, meaning “jar,” is a metonym for a papyrus scroll; in antiquity, scrolls were often stored in jars). The Jewish tradition refers to the books as tôrā (Heb.), transliterated as “Torah,” meaning “teaching” or “instruction.” [...] The name “the five books of Moses” was used primarily by the churches of the Reformation, but it also found its way into usage in other denominations.

So "Five Books of Moses" is specifically Christian, originally Protestant, but Pentateuch is neutral and scholarly, and Torah is specifically Jewish.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:52, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Further down in the same source Although some might view “Pentateuch” as a term employed for the Torah in Christianity in keeping with Enlightenment efforts to “protestantize” American – or even German – Judaism (cf. “Old Testament III. Judaism”; Blau: 51–53), the Greek meaning of the word indicates that it is particularly suitable to translate the Hebrew expression Ḥamishah ḥumshei Torah (the five fifths of the Torah), which is commonly employed in Judaism as a title for a Torah or Pentateuch commentary (e.g., Hertz). [...] The term “Pentateuch” was employed by leading figures in modern Western Orthodoxy, apparently because it corresponded well to the traditional title for a Torah commentary and because it signaled a connection to modernity on the part of modern Orthodox Judaism.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:54, 21 January 2025 (UTC)

Pentateuch is a Christian name because it is the name used by the vast majority of Christians. Vpab15 (talk) 19:12, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

What's your source for that when we literally have sources saying it's a scholarly name and also used by Jews that I've already cited with full quotations above?--Ermenrich (talk) 19:40, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

I said the name is the one used by Christians, not that Christians are the only ones to use it. Vpab15 (talk) 19:46, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

That's not clear from the wording in the article. If your only concern is the mention of Christians, they're mentioned below in the third paragraph of the lead.--Ermenrich (talk) 19:49, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

... it is the name used by the vast majority of Christians. Just curious, as a non-Christian person who's spent his life surrounded by Christians: Outside of scholarly writings, do most Christians ever refer to the five books at all? I hear and see them write about the Gospels, the Epistles, the Old Testament and New Testament, the Ten Commandments, and, of course, individual books. The first five books, as such, are not something I'm accustomed to them saying anything about at all, by any name. If that's the case, then I'd say that the vast majority of Christians don't call them, as a collection, anything at all. Largoplazo (talk) 20:28, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I'd say the term Pentateuch is relatively well known by Christians and many or most will know that it refers to the first five books of the Old Testament. Vpab15 (talk) 20:36, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

You didn't say, and I didn't ask for confirmation, that they're aware of the term. You were implying an abundance of use of the term in discourse throughout the Christian population of the world, and I'm doubting that there's even an abundance of references to the five books among those people using any term. Largoplazo (talk) 21:00, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

I have added a Britannica reference to the article. the vast majority of Christians don't call them, as a collection, anything at all. That is not true, it is a very widely used term in Christianity, which you can easily find. Vpab15 (talk) 21:31, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

But I could find a reference to allow us to say "In Judaism and Christianity..."[1] and then we're back to where we started. StAnselm (talk) 21:59, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

I can easily find it how? Where can I find sources establishing that the first five books of the Hebrew Bible are spoken of collectively by the majority of Christians? Largoplazo (talk) 23:20, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

The article goes on to say the term was first used in the Hellenistic Judaism of Alexandria. StAnselm (talk) 20:09, 5 February 2025 (UTC)

Vpab15 - you seem to be ignoring the basic point. Saying "In Christianity" implies that no one else calls it that. We have several sources that say other groups also call it that, including secular scholars and Jews! Also, Britannica is not a very good source, as has been established numerous times (see WP:BRITANNICA). We have better sources that I've cited above. Why are you so insistent on this particular wording?--Ermenrich (talk) 21:55, 5 February 2025 (UTC)